So I don’t know how many of you follow or read Paleo blogs, but there has been some drama going on in the Paleo blogosphere.
And frankly, I haven’t really been interested in commenting or getting at all involved until I saw a tweet by Mark Sisson the other day.
This twitter conversation was sort of the last straw for me.
I will address his tweet and the comments first before I begin my rant on about the women behind a lot of the drama.
For one, Mark is completely right. You may find an article or post on a site that you agree with, BUT that doesn’t mean that you agree with everything on that site.
I mean shoot….I know I have actually quite a few readers who are vegetarians. They obviously don’t agree with my perspective on nutrition, however, they do like what I have to say about working out!
So they may link out to a workout post on my blog.
If someone from their blog, clicks on the link to the workout article they posted and then happens to stumble on to an article about how much I LOVE meat, I highly doubt they are going to go accuse the author of the blog that posted my link of being anti-vegetarian just because they linked out to a post they did happen to agree with on my blog.
I know I’ve definitely linked out to conventional wisdom blogs that have ONE post that I agree with even if I don’t agree with anything else they’ve ever posted.
A good post, is a good post…PERIOD.
So when readers attack a blog author for linking out to posts from another site just because that site has other questionable content is COMPLETELY INSANE!
If you don’t like the other content on the blog linked out to, THEN DON’T READ THAT BLOG!
Secondly, I would like you to note the last comment on Mark’s tweet by Evelyn. I almost completely blanked out her info because I don’t really want to give her any more publicity since she is apparently seeking it out based on all of the rude comments she and another woman have been leaving ALL OVER THE PLACE!
But seriously lady!?!
Why insult him on a personal level even if you don’t agree with the links he posts? WHY make that comment about the memory supplement!?! WHY!?!
Also, as I stated above, just because you support one post on a site doesn’t mean you even agree with anything else. And if you, the reader, doesn’t like the site linked out to…DON’T READ IT!
Which leads me into the rest of the Paleo drama….
A couple of women have been attacking a number of the big “Paleo” bloggers…like Robb Wolf and Free The Animal, Richard Nikoley (who I actually don’t even consider a “Paleo” blogger).
They have even created a site that supposedly addresses:
Problems with the paleo community: misogyny, quackery, orthorexia, and more. Posts are by a variety of people. You can submit your own as well.
I refuse to link out to the site as I don’t want to help their rank on Google or really promote it in any way. If you choose to go in search of it and read their freaking ridiculous posts, the site won’t be hard to find.
But honestly, it isn’t even the site that really bothers me despite all the completely disrespectful shit-talking that goes on.
Hey…on your site, you can say WHATEVER you want. If I don’t like it, I don’t have to read it. Hence, I read a couple of posts, HATED THEM and refuse to go back onto the site.
BUT what I do have a problem with is when you start to take your fight onto OTHER people’s sites.
Honestly, I NEVER understood making nasty comments on someone else’s site. If you don’t agree, then don’t read their stuff!
If you don’t like the fact that Free the Animal uses the “c” word, DON’T READ HIS STUFF! Shoot write on your OWN site that people shouldn’t read his stuff, but don’t make nasty comments on his site about it! What’s the point!?!
Oh wait…the point is to get yourself publicity…not to ACTUALLY, TRULY make a point.
YOU JUST WANT ATTENTION!
One of the women involved in this drama actually created a fake account to attack one of the other commenters on a blog post and then denied it and finally admitted to it because the other person was supposedly “stalking” her….What a way to make women look bad!
It seriously drives me crazy when people do crap like this.
You can literally say whatever you want on your own site. I don’t care even if I think you are completely and utterly off base.
BUT if you are allowed to say whatever you want, ladies, then why can’t these other bloggers!?!
The whole point of a blog…the whole point of twitter, Facebook…social media…is to be able to say what YOU think!
And if a reader doesn’t like it? They don’t have to read it!
Plus I do just want to point out that what does misogyny really have to do with diet and exercise? Just because you don’t like their personal views doesn’t mean they don’t know what they are talking about when it comes to diet and exercise.
Also, quackery!?! UHM I would say you could use quackery to describe just about every opinion in the health and fitness field. You can find studies to prove and disprove just about EVERYTHING! We are all just experimenting and trying to find our way so really who knows what works.
If someone wants to try something and then write about what they found, WHO CARES!?! If you think their diet is stupid, DON’T DO IT!
And orthorexia!?! Please…For one they are writing a BLOG about diet and exercise…It is their BUSINESS. It isn’t like they are randomly going to talk about computer software on their health and fitness blog. I mean that is like condemning a golf website for only posting about golf stuff!
Anyway, that is my rant for today. And if those ladies DO happen to stumble across my site and my rant, I wonder what the would say.
They couldn’t get mad at me for cursing…since I rarely do.
They couldn’t get mad at me for being a misogynist because…well…I’m not.
I guess they could say I’m orthorexic…But then they should see the cheat day I had this week.
I guess they could also find some link on my site where I’ve linked out to a blog that has “hateful” posts. They could then accuse me of supporting a hate-filled site…
But then again…I didn’t link out to their blog…So that is one hate-filled site I’m definitely not supporting.
So now I ask…What do you think?
Posted on March 31, 2013, in Rants, Uncategorized and tagged free the animal, Mark's Daily Apple, paleo drama, Robb Wolf. Bookmark the permalink. 21 Comments.
You probably are not surprised to know that I don’t agree with you on this. Yes, people don’t have to read the offending blog – and in fact, that’s probably the best thing to do – but at the same time, when someone who is high profile within a community is saying things like certain women deserve the “Steubenville treatment,” I can’t blame someone for wanting to make it known that this kind of thing is unacceptable and wanting to put pressure on other high profile people in the community to take a stand against it.
A vegetarian who disagrees with your love of paleo-style eating is not really on the same level as a guy saying specific women should be raped and murdered. I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with you at all on this one.
I can’t blame them for wanting to make it known either….That is why we can create our own blogs.
And even one comment is fine.
But when you lie and create a fake account to comment and harass people and personally attack them…well that crosses a line for me.
When you cross a certain line then you start to turn people against your issue no matter how important.
Maybe I shouldn’t have used that analogy to the vegetarian but my point is that they, to me, trivialized an issue by the way they handled it. And they pushed away potential allies by their attack.
I mean I don’t get the attack on Robb Wolf because he went to the Bunny Ranch to do a presentation. Maybe I’m missing something….
Just wanted to clarify my stance even if you don’t agree (which I can respect :-))
I agree that sock puppets and all that are not the best way to deal with things, partly because it’s just immature but partly because it erodes credibility.
That said, the way a specific critic is handling herself in this area doesn’t really undo the fact that some of these guys are using their platforms to spread some really virulent, awful garbage, and that other guys – other guys who are “good guys” – are remaining silent about it, which in my eyes ain’t that great either! I know that they are “just sharing links” but in the internet economy that’s our currency. There’s a reason why Boing Boing took Nikoley’s link down, you know?
So I guess my point is that I think there is room to say that the critic you are referring to is behaving in ways you consider counterproductive while still thinking her underlying point is valid.
Oh gosh. THIS. Thank you. I came to the Paleo way of living because it’s positive; it’s changed my family and me for the better. If I needed this other crap, I’d just keep flunking 7th grade and hang around 13-year olds.
Sharing racist links and threats against women, you’d think in 2013 people wouldn’t want that kind of stuff around in a health community…thus my comment on Sisson’s thread.
I commented because I generally agree with him … but also brought up a point directly related to why he tweeted this in the first place.Generally most ppl are aware that sharing a link doesn’t imply a blanket endorsement. But when you share violent, racist or misogynistic links, that is a problem.
There’s a lil difference when the links are racist or violent towards women.
Racism and misogyny are not cool and should not be tolerated in a health community.
That was the problem.
At least Sisson hasn’t done such a thing.
This whole topic came from Jaminet, Jimmy Moore, Davis, McGuff sharing ‘controversial’ links. They linked David Duke, former Grand Wizard of KKK
Jaminet’s was less offensive, white nationalists nonetheless.
…and also was in reference to people linking to Nikoley, promoting his demeaning, bigoted blog posts.
This is the problem, get it?
Nikoley’s blog is a hotbed for inexcusable and offensive anti woman rhetoric. It’s hateful. The main post that brought all this up was not only demeaning, it was violent, with rape threats.
It should be called out and people made aware that so called ‘health’ gurus do this type of shit, which thankfully isn’t often.
This was all happening around the time of Stebenville trial. You and others are evading an important issue and shifting blame. This is what the media did after the verdict, blame the victim, praise the bully. This is why people call this ‘rape culture’ – because when threats (or violence) against women are made, you resort to blaming the victim not holding the aggressor accountable.
Paleodrama catalogs all these offensive links. Can’t delete all your regrets on the interwebz. You’re just defending your friends/gurus. Honorable, I must say, you’re a true friend. Rare indeed. Unfortunately, you’ll need to do better research for your next article as your claims are incorrect.
Hatred & internet threats should not be tolerated. People sharing these links will get called out, that’s a normal part of human societies. We keep each other in check.
Expect people to speak up if you’re (not you author, but the aforementioned Gurus) going to promote hate, sexism or racism. Pretty simple actually.
Thanks for sharing.
Honestly, I’m not defending Richard. Richard can take care of himself.
And I’m slightly offended…I did my research and my claims aren’t incorrect they just aren’t address exactly the topic you are discussing.
I DO actually understand why the whole thing started and do believe that people should speak their mind.
And I do not support sexism (or racism). I am a strong feminist and do everything that I can to promote women’s equality and rights on and off the internet. (Which honestly made it a very tough decision for me to post against other women.)
BUT I do think there is a proper way to speak out against things if you TRULY want change.
And I don’t think trying to smear good men’s names, like Mark Sisson’s or Robb Wolf’s, is the way to go.
I guess I personally just felt that the comments on his twitter turned the battle away from what was truly important and made it more about getting attention.
Honestly, I believe that if you don’t like a movement, you should leave it and start your own.
I fight every day against the stigma against women who lift heavy. And guess what?
I have to deal with stupid people (both men and women) who make idiotic, and in my opinion sexist, comments like…women who lift heavy are masculine…or bulky…or any such crap.
But instead of going to personally attack those people or even comment on their blogs, I write my own. I’ve started my OWN movement.
Let’s face it, we can either go back and forth talking crap about each other, or we can be positive and start our own movement to promote the things we believe in.
I think the “shit talking” doesn’t really get us anywhere which is why I was hesitant to post on this subject in the first place. I would much rather focus on creating change by focusing on the good and positive not the negative.
Anyway, I guess my post was meant to be more about HOW things were dealt with than the fact of whether or not what was said originally was right.
I do appreciate that you shared though and even if you don’t agree I hope this at least clarifies my stance.
1) With respect to my tweet to Mark Sisson, he made a promise to me (and at least one other person) that he wouldn’t be linking to a certain website. He broke that promise. Simple as that.
2) Robb Wolf tweeted to me to go fuck myself. He subsequently proceeded to misrepresent our email exchanges, throw in with a true stalker, and take “aid and comfort” from Nikoley. You can read the emails on my blog because I’m tired of this so I’ve published most of them. His tweet was wholly inappropriate but compounded by his trashing me. You don’t invite stalkers to your LinkedIn.
3) What Antonio said, but also Nikoley has directly threatened me, numerous times that goes well beyond the vile name calling. Both Mark and Robb are aware of this, there’s just nothing in it for them to do anything publicly about it. That’s fine, but the least they could do is not promote the behavior by engaging the person, no?
4) Quackery and bad science should have no place in a community that claims to be science based. “Paleo” has Mark Sisson and Robb Wolf among others to thank for the entire Jack Kruse debacle. If they are going to talk science, they should be able to take criticism for when they get it wrong.
5) I cannot comment on most WP blogs because two years ago I got on some spam list due to being impersonated. I post here from my Twitter account. I only post with my Google ID (Evelyn aka CarbSane) or when possible my other accounts. Recently a Carbsanity posted on Karen Phelps’ blog. This is, unfortunately, nothing new.
Have a nice day.
I’m really unsure as to how to respond to your comment as I don’t feel like I can get my point across without it coming out as a personal attack.
“I agree that sock puppets and all that are not the best way to deal with things, partly because it’s just immature but partly because it erodes credibility.”
Honestly this statement from Caitlin sums up exactly how I feel. You can see her comment somewhere in this chain…I don’t want you (or her for that matter) to think that I’ve thrown her under the bus…she does in fact support you and is an amazing woman herself.
All of the points you basically just listed are personal….they are mudslinging in my opinion.
And I’m not here to comment even on their validity.
But I do believe that if we want our voice heard and our opinion listened to, we must act above our opponents. If they sling mud…if they call us names…that doesn’t mean we have to.
I’ve already been told I’ve ignored the real issue…however I didn’t ignore it….I meant to point out how much the REAL issue has gotten lost.
And to me…your comment perfectly highlights the fact that the REAL issue was long ago forgotten about. I’m sorry if this statement offends you, but it is how I feel.
I will make one last statement, on a topic I am much more comfortable discussing because I am a health and fitness blogger. In terms of the quackery in a community based on science…that unfortunately describes EVERY community in the health and fitness industry…And I’m saying this as a personal trainer who is very frustrated sometimes with the health and fitness industry, but believes that no one person can be to blame for this…Diet and exercise is a field full of quackery no matter how much we try to make it based on science. As long as people can make money in this field off of selling fad diets and junk equipment, they are going to. The whole point of Paleo and Primal was to get people AWAY from conventional wisdom and the low-fat fad…to get them eating healthier things. But in any community where there is a big following and money to be made, people are going to try to take advantage.
Anyway, I could go on about health and fitness forever but will spare you for now.:-)
I wish you all the best Evelyn. But even being a strong woman myself, I can’t support your methodologies.
Have a good day,
Thanks for posting my comment and your considered reply. Cori, I don’t know what to say anymore because you try and do the right thing in this community and you basically get screwed no matter what. In the wake of Krusegate I spent over an hour and a half on the phone with Mark Sisson. If he didn’t have another scheduled call we could very well have talked longer. I have never broken the confidences of that phone call and it has been very difficult at times. The same goes for our email exchanges which have been brief but there have been a few.
What do YOU do if you had a cordial relationship with Mark Sisson, and he promised — not at my behest, but he expressed regret at a linking and stated in no uncertain terms “it won’t happen again” — and then lo and behold, along comes the Link Love. It’s a slap in the face. So that was pretty much the last time I bothered emailing him because why bother. When this RW stuff broke out, Mark could have stayed out of it, but he didn’t. Only he tweets from on high about his disappointment. Well, Cori, I am profoundly disappointed that this man doesn’t have the common decency to take one iota of responsibility for something he helped cultivate. No monster-MDA thread for Kruse, no Krusegate, etc. How is pointing that out to Mark in a tweet mud-slinging?
So I am tired of being the one who plays by the rules and getting rolled over. Same for Wolf. For ONCE can we hold the people who are so-called “leaders” to the higher standard? He had my email address. He could have emailed me and said “Ev, you’re being a pain in the ass, knock it off” or “you’re out of line”. I mean c’mon!! He’s even whining that I didn’t contact him in almost the same breath as he claims I was pestering and stalking and bullying him. In what friggin’ world can I bully “the one”?? He asked my advice on Jimmy/LCC13, I gave it. Then I sat back and waited to see if he was going to post something. He did not. People commented on MY blog wondering why he didn’t pull out of that cruise. These were, I thought, personal emails so I gave “the only thing I can think is he feels some sort of obligation” type answers. Why didn’t he just say that I should share his reasons with my readers if they asked?? I sure as heck wasn’t about to push the point.
I will be writing some open letters soon. I hope you’ll read them.
After this comment I really don’t plan to say any more because neither of us is going to change the other’s opinion.
From your comment: “For ONCE can we hold the people who are so-called “leaders” to the higher standard?”
You are now a leader of the movement against these men…And I just have one question for you…And I mean this with no disrespect, but are you holding yourself to a higher standard?
You say it’s a hate filled site but don’t you realize that the site is just documenting the hate that is spewed from other paleo blogs. Why was defending Sisson and Wolf more important to you than addressing the real issue?
Thanks for commenting!
So those last couple of lines are meant to be a tad bit humorous since well that is my sense of humor even if slightly bizarre. It was more a comment on the fact that the twitter post I included was all about links out to “hate-filled” sites.
And why is it more important to me to defend them than address the real issue?
Because I feel like the attack on them takes away from the real issue and is more about getting attention then it is about really addressing anything.
I honestly believe that bad behavior by critics can trivialize an issue that would otherwise be widely supported. It can turn away even potential sympathizers.
So by attacking people such as Sisson and Wolf, this battle became more about mudslinging than about a serious debate.
Hope that answers your question!
Take the good and apply it, take the bad and discard it! People need to be open minded and don’t shoot the messenger. It may not be good for you but it could really help someone else.
OPEN MIND 🙂
Very good point! OPEN MIND…LOVE IT!
How do you decide when they don’t tell the truth? Or you don’t have the background to separate the quackery from the useful.
“The hilarious irony is that the blogger of the post in question won’t link to a hate site because they don’t want to bring traffic there. It’s almost too hilarious to be true since I’ve been saying the same thing. But the site they won’t link to is this one. To some corners of the paleo community, this is a hate site, whereas sites with actual misogyny, racism, and other serious bigotry are fine to link to as long as they link to a specific non-hate post. ” paleo drama
I did nothing wrong. Honestly, you’ve leveled some pretty heavy charges on me in this piece and don’t seem to have a clue what you are talking about. Where have I been posting all over the internet? Am I not allowed to use FB and Twitter a bit? I use it far less than most, and this would be the first comments I’ve left on a blog except for that one comment (via FB) on Robb’s in months. I’m not leading any movement against any one, I will call out fraud when I see it.
But Evelyn, why do these people owe you ANYTHING?
As you disown what you call the “Incestral Health Community” and mock everything they do – and that’s your right, that’s why God invented the internet –
why are you expecting them to make and keep promises to you, as if you were their mother, or a dear old friend? “It’s a slap in the face.” Really?
Surely you are just a thorn in their side?
You hit the nail on the head with respect to all the folks associated with paleo drama (McEwen, Evelyn, Nikoley…). Essentially these folks don’t like losing their importance in the paleo pond, so they make up faux-controversies to garner more attention. Can’t be sure any of them are playing with a full deck.
Thanks Matt. Although I personally wouldn’t put Richard in the same boat as McEwen and Evelyn.
Bottom line here is that I find it impossible to call Richard’s treatment of McEwen anything other than sexual harassment. She has a point when she objects to it, and even if her political position on it is infuriating, that doesn’t make it OK.
Evelyn’s long-time use of off-the-cuff and often sloppy science pedantry, and/or faux-outrage over the misdemeanours of third parties, as a convenient excuse to harass Big Names in low-carb and Paleo is despicable. That McEwen doesn’t call her out on it in Paleo Drama shows poor judgement. But it’s not evidence of insanity.
I wouldn’t put McEwen in the same boat as Richard and Evelyn.
That would be too much like Life of Pi.